>>4
4. Admin 2023-05-11 20:50:18 (edited 2023-05-11 21:03:58)
>>3
>Funny saying that, Ukrainian persons would probably be very upset if they read your translation with Russian-style places.
The translation isn't mine - it was done in 1981 and I link to the source in the description. I don't generally like to change another professional translator's word choices (particularly if it would cause a change in the number of syllables or the word endings) unless I have a good reason, and you have to do it carefully. It can cause all kinds of literary side effects.
Also, I haven't checked all of them, but the two other English translations I've looked at (by Vladimir Nabokov and Leonard Magnus) also use "Russia". Maybe the avoidance of "Russia" in English before a certain time period is a newer trend that wasn't around when those translations were done? I'm not really sure.
I do not know about English versions. However, the issue of place names is perfectly acceptable in a modern context, for example : Please "russia" must be replaced with "rusi". Personally, I figured that this film was produced by Ukrainian ones, so it's in Ukrainian texts, and the Russians will, of course, use their style. Actually, since I am Vietnamese, in case I use Chinese transliteration, it is still correct.>>3
>Funny saying that, Ukrainian persons would probably be very upset if they read your translation with Russian-style places.
The translation isn't mine - it was done in 1981 and I link to the source in the description. I don't generally like to change another professional translator's word choices (particularly if it would cause a change in the number of syllables or the word endings) unless I have a good reason, and you have to do it carefully. It can cause all kinds of literary side effects.
Also, I haven't checked all of them, but the two other English translations I've looked at (by Vladimir Nabokov and Leonard Magnus) also use "Russia". Maybe the avoidance of "Russia" in English before a certain time period is a newer trend that wasn't around when those translations were done? I'm not really sure.
Replies: >>6
6. Admin 2023-05-12 03:23:10 (edited 2023-05-12 03:54:23)
>>5
>"russia" must be replaced with "rusi".
Yes, I saw that in your edited subtitles you replaced "Russians" with "Rusians" and "the Russian land" with "Rusland".
The problem with "Rusland" is that I haven't seen it used in English - it simply seems to be the modern Dutch-language name for "Russia". I guess it's useful for those who simply don't like looking at the word "Russia", though, and choose to associate it only with the modern state, so we could have that as an option.
I looked this up a bit, and it seems that back then, they used either a single "S" or a double "S" in spelling it, and
the double "S" only became standard in Peter the Great's time, probably due to German/Dutch influence. For example, see this analysis of the 1377 Laurentian Codex:
"Руская земля" (л.1 об.)
"море Руское" (л.3 об.)
"рускаго князя" (л.6 об.)
"людье рустии" (л.11 об.)
"Русьскую землю" (л.50 об.)
"самовластец Русьстей земли" (л.51)
"князь русьскый" (л.54 об.)
"земле Русьстей" (л.58)
"русьскым именемь" (л.78)
"землю Русскую" (л.101 об.)
"князи русские" (л.103 об.)
"Русскую землю" (л.169)
A single member of the ethnos was "русин" (in "modern" Russian, this word can still be encountered in the context of old bylinas (about bogatyrs such as Dobrynya, Alyosha, etc.) that use older language, and it is still used by the so-called Rusyn people of Central Europe). The whole group was "русь" (rus'), and one of the names for the land was "русь-ск-ая земля" (rus'-sian land). Logically (if you analyze the grammar), that seems to be the original form, which was then shortened to either "русская"/russian (dropping the soft sign) or even further to just "руская"/rusian (as in modern Ukrainian). But the point is that all of these, back then, referred to the same thing and were interchangeably used - the differences were due to different grammatical tenses or lazy spelling, as in the examples above. Much, much later, different spellings became standard in different places, but the actual name (as it sounds when spoken) never seems to have changed.
I think this may also have been the perspective of the earlier English translators who decided to use that spelling.
>Personally, I figured that this film was produced by Ukrainian ones, so it's in Ukrainian texts, and the Russians will, of course, use their style.
Well... Vladimir Nabokov and Leonard Magnus published for Western editors. I also don't know if there is a distinction between "Rusian" and "Russian" in Ukrainian... if the standard way in Ukrainian to spell "Russian" now is with one "s", then how is it possible to differentiate between "Rusians" and "Russians"? Isn't that precisely why they call Russians "Muscovites" instead?
But like I said, I'm fine with having two versions...
>>5
>"russia" must be replaced with "rusi".
Yes, I saw that in your edited subtitles you replaced "Russians" with "Rusians" and "the Russian land" with "Rusland".
The problem with "Rusland" is that I haven't seen it used in English - it simply seems to be the modern Dutch-language name for "Russia". I guess it's useful for those who simply don't like looking at the word "Russia", though, and choose to associate it only with the modern state, so we could have that as an option.
I looked this up a bit, and it seems that back then, they used either a single "S" or a double "S" in spelling it, and
the double "S" only became standard in Peter the Great's time, probably due to German/Dutch influence. For example, see this analysis of the 1377 Laurentian Codex:
"Руская земля" (л.1 об.)
"море Руское" (л.3 об.)
"рускаго князя" (л.6 об.)
"людье рустии" (л.11 об.)
"Русьскую землю" (л.50 об.)
"самовластец Русьстей земли" (л.51)
"князь русьскый" (л.54 об.)
"земле Русьстей" (л.58)
"русьскым именемь" (л.78)
"землю Русскую" (л.101 об.)
"князи русские" (л.103 об.)
"Русскую землю" (л.169)
A single member of the ethnos was "русин" (in "modern" Russian, this word can still be encountered in the context of old bylinas (about bogatyrs such as Dobrynya, Alyosha, etc.) that use older language, and it is still used by the so-called Rusyn people of Central Europe). The whole group was "русь" (rus'), and one of the names for the land was "русь-ск-ая земля" (rus'-sian land). Logically (if you analyze the grammar), that seems to be the original form, which was then shortened to either "русская"/russian (dropping the soft sign) or even further to just "руская"/rusian (as in modern Ukrainian). But the point is that all of these, back then, referred to the same thing and were interchangeably used - the differences were due to different grammatical tenses or lazy spelling, as in the examples above. Much, much later, different spellings became standard in different places, but the actual name (as it sounds when spoken) never seems to have changed.
I think this may also have been the perspective of the earlier English translators who decided to use that spelling.
>Personally, I figured that this film was produced by Ukrainian ones, so it's in Ukrainian texts, and the Russians will, of course, use their style.
Well... Vladimir Nabokov and Leonard Magnus published for Western editors. I also don't know if there is a distinction between "Rusian" and "Russian" in Ukrainian... if the standard way in Ukrainian to spell "Russian" now is with one "s", then how is it possible to differentiate between "Rusians" and "Russians"? Isn't that precisely why they call Russians "Muscovites" instead?
But like I said, I'm fine with having two versions...